谈话 - What We Talk About



问：你的电影音轨由寂静和现实生活中的声音所构成。 要创造出这种宁静，其难点是什么？你选择这种方式而不是使用音乐或声音特效的原因是什么？

Question: Your film is composed by quietness and sounds from real life. To create this kind of serenity, what are the difficulties in your practice and the reason you choose this way rather than using music or sound effect.


答：你提到了寂静（quietness）和宁静（serenity），这两个词很有趣。寂静并不会带来宁静，能够带来宁静的是声音。青蛙扑通一声跳入池塘，便是宁静。声音揭示出宁静，它是有张力的，而寂静只是没有变化而已。其中的关键是要获得对张力的把捉。

是的，我很少在影片中使用音乐，除非是有特殊的目的。画面往往会因为配上音乐而被消磨掉自身的细节，让画面只成为了某种特定的情感标签，观影体验会变得过于单一。有些人认为音乐能更好地烘托画面的情绪，其实大多数情况下只是因为画面的情绪太过虚弱，从而需要音乐来补救。然而画面不应当被音乐补救，它需要在自身中寻找解救的办法。音乐和画面的关系是一个游戏，一场双人舞，而不是救火现场。事实上，轻率地结合音乐和画面，音乐自身也同样受到了损害。当你聆听肖邦的《夜曲》或者柴可夫斯基的《六月船歌》时，那种美感并非是来自于联想到的某个画面，而是音乐本身所带来的体验。给音乐配上画面的这种做法，会让这种体验大打折扣。如果决定使用音乐，它需要为整个影片带来新的东西，使之丰富起来。


Answer: You mentioned quietness and serenity, these two words are really interesting. Quietness does not bring serenity, it is sound that can bring serenity. The frog jumped into the pond with a plop, and it was serenity. The sound reveals serenity, it is tense, and quietness is just unchanged. The key is to gain a grasp of tension.

Yes, I rarely use music in films unless it is for a special purpose. The image often wears away its own details because of the music, making the image only a certain emotional label, and the viewing experience will become too monotonous. Some people think that music can better set off the mood of the image, but in most cases it is just because the mood of the image is too weak, which requires music to remedy it. However, the picture should not be remedied by music, it needs to find a rescue in itself. The relationship between music and picture is a game, a duet dance, not a fire fighting scene. In fact, indiscreetly combining music and image, the music itself is also damaged. When you listen to Chopin's Nocturne or Tchaikovsky's June: Barcarolle, the beauty does not come from a certain image you think of, but the experience brought by the music itself. The practice of equipping the music with image will make this experience greatly compromised. If you decide to use music, it needs to bring something new to the entire film and enrich it.




问：我个人对你巧妙地将抽象画面与具体形象结合的方式印象十分深刻。 通过这种讲故事的方式，你想表达什么样的叙事？以及更重要的是，通过你的艺术探究方式，月亮对你来说意味着什么？

Question: I'm personally impressed by your masterful way of merging the abstract blurriness with more detailed images. Through this way of telling the story, what kind of narrative do you want to express, and more importantly, through your way of artistic investigation, what does moon mean to you?


答：是的，事实上这里存在着两种叙事，一种是抽象叙事，另外一种是意象诗学叙事，诗学意味着对逻辑的超越。抽象叙事可以类比抽象画，它是通过颜色和形状来进行叙事；另外一种意象诗学叙事是通过使用某些特定的具体意象来叙事。你问我想要表达怎样一种叙事，然而对我来说，不论是何种类型的叙事，它们都是隐性的。叙事本身不被表达，被表达的是叙事带来的体验。

这部影片名为《月夜》，它讲述的是月亮在当代生活中有着怎样的意义。月亮意味着什么呢？在影片中我引用了一段阿波罗登月的影像。这是上个世纪最令人激动事件之一，然而海德格尔在接受《明镜》杂志的采访提及此事时曾说：“人类存在之巨木是已然被连根拔起了。”在他看来，这仿佛是某种危险。月亮在我们当代生活语境中的意义已经发生了极大的变化。在古人的眼中，月亮是一个极富神秘色彩的意象，我们知道在古代诗词中经常能够看到她的身影。而当代人看到月亮（因为大气污染，或许能看到月亮也不是那么容易的事）想到的极有可能是太空移民或者资源开采。当然这没什么不好，我也不是在宣扬乡愁的情绪。我所重视的不是作为物质存在的月亮，而是它作为某种精神性存在的载体。这种精神性存在最为集中的表达即是“思念”，不论是对人或是物的思念，皆可寄寓于月亮。而在现代生活中由于种种的原因，月亮所承载的这层含义正逐渐黯淡，并且在当代生活的夜晚中，月亮本身也在逐渐消隐。我认为真正的危险不是人们将不再拥有月亮，而是人们将不再拥有思念。


Answer: Yes, there are actually two narratives here, one is abstract narrative, and the other is imagery poetic narrative. Poetics means transcending logic. Abstract narration can be analogous to abstract painting, which uses colors and shapes to narrate; another kind of imagery poetic narrative uses certain specific images to narrate. You ask me what kind of narrative I want to express, but to me, no matter what type of narrative, they are all implicit. The narrative itself is not expressed, what is expressed is the experience brought about by the narrative.


The film is called Moon at Night, and it tells about the meaning of the moon in contemporary life. What does the moon mean? In the film I quoted an image of Apollo landing on the moon. This is one of the most exciting events of the last century. However, when Heidegger mentioned it in an interview with Der Spiegel magazine, he said: " The giant tree of human existence has already been uprooted totally." In his opinion, this seems to be some kind of danger. The meaning of the moon in the context of our contemporary life has undergone tremendous changes. In the eyes of the ancients, the moon is a very mysterious image. We know that she can often be seen in ancient poems. However, when contemporary people see the moon (because of atmospheric pollution, it may not be so easy to see the moon) most likely they think of space migration or resource exploitation. Of course, there is nothing wrong with this, and I am not promoting nostalgia. What I value is not the moon as a material existence, but as a carrier of a certain spiritual existence. The most concentrated expression of this kind of spiritual existence is "missing." Whether it is missing people or things, they can all reside in the moon. In modern life, due to various reasons, the meaning of the moon is gradually dimming, and in the night of contemporary life, the moon itself is gradually disappearing. I think the real danger is not that people will no longer have the moon, but that people will no longer have missing.

2021年于杭州钱塘